Herbie Herbert

Music:

Member Since: 28/03/2007
Band Website: http://www.syklopps.com/
Band Members:

WALTER EGO (Guitar Recordings, 1993)

*PRODUCED BY David Denny and Bobby Scott

**PRODUCED BY David Denny, Bobby Schott and Chip Znuff

***PRODUCED BY Donnie Vie and Chip Znuff

All Selections MIXED BY Kevin Elson

SECOND ENGINNER Tom Size

Fantasy Studios, Berkeley, CA

January 1993

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER FOR GUITAR RECORDINGS John Stix

MANAGER Steve Miller

ART DIRECTION & COVER ART Jim Welch

INSIDE ART Prairie Prince

TYPOGRAPHY My Aunt Leona Design

SY KLOPPS BLUES BAND

Sy Klopps (Herbie Herbert) Lead Vocals, Lead Guitar, Rhythm Guitar

Norton Buffalo Harmonica

David Denny Rhythm Guitar

Kevin Elson Mixer Extraordinaire

Kee Marcello Lead Guitar

Prairie Prince Drums

Gregg Rolie Piano

Neal Schon Lead Guitar

Bobby Scott Lead & Rhythm Guitar

Ross Valory Bass Guitar

Donnie Vie Rhythm Guitar and Background Vocals

Chip Znuff 4-String and 12-String Bass Guitar and Background Vocals

Zopilote Spiritual Advisor

RECORDED AT

RD Recording/San Francisco, CA

David Denny ENGINEER

March, April 1987

Chicago Recording Company/Chicago, IL

Phil Bonanno ENGINEER

Doug McBride Second ENGINEER

Jim Hoffman ENGINEER

John Ray Castellanos ENGINEER

March, September 1992

A&M Studios/Los Angeles, CA

Phil Bonanno ENGINEER

May 1992

Fantasy Studios/Berkeley, CA

Tom Size ENGINEER

Michael Semenick ENGINEER

December 1992, January 1993

MASTERED BY

Bob Ludwig

Gateway Mastering Studios, Inc./Portland, MN

January 1993

(Sy Records, 1995)

Sy Klopps (Herbie Herbert) Lead Vocal

Neal Schon Lead Guitar

Ross Valory Bass Guitar

Greg Errico Drums

Bobby Scott Rhythm Guitar

David Denny Rhythm Guitar

Herman Eberitzsch Keyboards

Tony Lufrano Keyboard and Horns

Additional musicians:

"The Cats"

John Bammont Tenor and Baritone Sax

Tom Larkin Trumpet

Marvin McFadden Trumpet

Terry Russel Trombone

Chip Znuff Bass Guitar and Background Vocals

OLD BLUE EYE IS BACK

(Sy Records, 1995)

Album Information

Return to Herbie Herbert's Home Page

Living on the Highway

How Blue Can You Get

Personal Manager

That Will Never Do

Woke Up The Morning

Pretty Woman

Good Morning Little School Girl

Killing Floor

It's Too Late She's Gone

Down Don't Bother Me

Hoochie Coochie Man

Wine

OLD BLUE EYE IS BACK

(Sy Records, 1995)

Sy Klopps (Herbie Herbert) Lead Vocal

Neal Schon Lead Guitar

Ross Valory Bass Guitar

Greg Errico Drums

Bobby Scott Rhythm Guitar

David Denny Rhythm Guitar

Herman Eberitzsch Keyboards

Tony Lufrano Keyboard and Horns

Additional musicians:

"The Cats"

John Bammont Tenor and Baritone Sax

Tom Larkin Trumpet

Marvin McFadden Trumpet

Terry Russel Trombone

Chip Znuff Bass Guitar and Background Vocals

Influences:

Herbie Herbert Interviews

http://members.cox.net/mrcarty/

http://www.classicrockrevisited.com/Interviews06/herbieherbe rt06.htm

The Legend of Cy Klopps

From Journey Force Newsletter

By: Herbie Herbert

Transcribed by: Becky

It's been often said that reality is what you make it. And nowhere has the concept of a created reality been more amply demonstrated than by the saga of bluesman cy klopps, an idea whose time has come.

Cy started life as a simple joke between two guys, turned into an elaborate leg-pulling and finally, fueled by a hungry press and music industry race to get in on the ground floor of emerging talent, into an actual "act" with an all-star recording session, pending record deal and everything.

If someone pitched the following scenario to a film producer, they would get laughed out of the office. "Too improbable," the producer would say. But then, truth always has been stranger than fiction. If you don't believe that, just read the following as related to us by journey's manager, herbie herbert:

The whole Cy Klopps legend started out as a complete farce. Pat Morrow would call me every morning, and I'd get into this whole Jewish mode. I'd answer the phone "Haallllllloooooo" and then he'd pause and say, "So, Sy...begets?" And I'd go "So, Sol...new?" Then he'd drive down to pick me up, or conversely, I'd drive up to get him and we'd go into work together. I was known at times to harangue him, and when we'd get to work, our receptionist would ask Pat, "How's Sy today?" And Pat would answer "Sy Goldfarb? Sy Benowitz?" He'd come up with a different name all the time. Sometimes he'd say "Ah, Sy Goldfarb, one of the nicest guys I know." One day it was "Oy, Sy Klopps." This took on a whole new inference, like this one-eyed monster.

Eventually, a routine developed on it, and Pat suggested that we should do a recording, spelled this way...Cy Klopps. It would be a Cy Klopps Jewish Blues Band, but with the double entendre of one eye, and so forth. We had this whole list of album titles...the first would be called "All Those in Favor, Say Eye," the second "Eye for an Eye", the third "Third Eye," the fourth "Four Eyes", the fifth "Eye Five", with the hand slap, the eyeball, the sixth "I Only Have Eye for You", the seventh was more rock & roll, and it was called "Get Back, Cataract," the eighth album was a return to the blues, and was called "Ol' Blue Eye is Back." The reggae album was "Eye and Eye," the live album was "Eye Live," or "Live Eye".

We would do that routine on the road (during the Journey tour), and it got around a little bit. One day Hector Lizardi (Journey's tour accountant) and I were at lunch with Don Law (concert promoter) and we were talking about Cy Klopps; it was funny and we were thinking we ought to say that Cy Klopps came here and played. Don would say that he heard about him on Harvard Square and it was a buzz, and he (Cy) phoned and Don booked him. He insisted on playing Halloween night at the Paradise Club (the big club in Boston) and Don would say that he did, and that he sold out. It was reported to the trade magazines and the industry; other promoters got involved.

People started to think that Cy Klopps really existed, even though the whole thing was just a figment of our imagination. John Scher(promoter) reported that on Thanksgiving, Cy Klopps played the Ritz in New York and sold it out, and Jerry Mickelson (promoter) reported to POLLSTAR, to the amusement business, and to BILLBOARD that Cy Klopps came in and played on Christmas Day at the Park West in Chicago. Then Bill Graham reported that he (Cy) showed up and did the Waldorf on New Years. On Valentines Day, he was in New Orleans. The reports just kept coming in. He only played on holidays, only in the evening, he'd only do a $10 ticket, and he would always do virtually sell out business.

Pretty soon, it was ridiculous. All the agents were calling and record companies were phoning the promoters getting really hostile..."How could this happen and you not tell us?" Premier Talent, the company that represents all my artists, JOURNEY, EUROPE, ERIC MARTIN, AND GREGG ROLIE, called John Scher saying they were really upset that an artist could come in and perform at someplace like the Ritz in New York and sell out. They were angry that John didn't tell them. John would just squirm out of it, and soon the rap was that Cy Klopps was a real recluse who didn't say much. When you asked him where he was from, he'd say "I'm Bad, I'm Nationwide". That was his famous quote.

So we continued that, and when we got to New York on the Journey tour, Hector and John Scher had these "Eye to Eye World Tour" jackets made, and were seen wearing them around. John Scher had these postcards made, addressed them to all the people in the industry, put them in manila envelopes, and sent them all over the country. Then he had all these people take them out of the envelopes, and mail them so that they would arrive at all the agencies and record companies with the Cy Klopps logo, and "Hi from Cy. I'm bad, I'm nationwide. See you soon." People receiving the card would think, "Now I'll know where he's from. I'll look at the postmark!" Well, they were posted from everywhere. So, this scam just kept going and it snowballed.

Then one day, I was in my office with a bunch of people, including this guy I hadn't seen in ten years, Dave Denny. Dave knew Ross Valory and they used to play with the Steve Miller Band; he had just stopped by to say hello. While he was there, I got a conference call from some of these promoters telling me it had become a front page story in HITS MAGAZINE, and was insider news from POLLSTAR. All kinds of press was being generated and everyone knew about it. Now these guys were on the phone saying it had to become a reality. They were telling me that we couldn't jerk off the music industry like that, and pull off a farce like that unless we wanted to take the heat and the rap. They said, "We recommend you learn how to sing and play the guitar real quick."

I got off the phone saying, "You guys can't put that kind of pressure on me, it's ridiculous, we can't possibly make it a reality." And Dave Denny was sitting there and he said, "Hey no problem. You can do it." And I said, "Who'll play?" and he said "Ross Valory will get some guys together." I thought about it, and decided I'd go down to the studio one day to prove that it can't work and couldn't happen, and that would be the end of it. I showed up and Ross Valory was there on bass with Prairie Prince to play drums, Norton Buffalo on harmonica (one of the foremost studio harmonica players), local legend Bobby Scott on guitar, and Dave Denny producing and engineering. Dave said, "We can do the basics with you singing, and then you can come back later and put the lead guitar on it." I said OK, and we did that. We had a couple of rules. No rehearsal, no practice, no second takes. Honestly, that turned into no third takes. A lot of it we just did live. The first song we decided to do was "Born Under a Bad Sign", then we did "Going Down," then a ZZ Top song called "Jesus Just Left Chicago."

The EUROPE came to town to start their tour. I was at the studio one night recording and doing my own thing, and John Villanueva showed up with most of the members of Europe. I was so nervous and shocked. Kee Marcello (guitarist for Europe) wanted to play, so he put a solo on the second song, "Going Down".

One day, a couple months later, I was with Neal Schon talking to him about Kee. Neal was saying, "I'm not really familiar with his guitar playing." Of course, Kee doesn't play on the Europe album (he joined Europe after it was recorded). So I said, "I've got something he did. Let me play it for you." I didn't tell Neal that it was ME. He listened to it and said, "I love that guy! I'd love to play with him. I wish I had some blues songs like that to burn on." Then, all of a sudden, Kee wanted to play on more songs and wanted to meet and play with Neal, and have Neal play on it. So, even though most of it was ready to be mixed with my guitar and Bobby Scott's guitar, they came in and, with the exception of the song that Kee had already played on, redid the guitars on all the songs. So...here I am, Cy Klopps Blues Band with Neal Schon, Kee Marcello, Ross Valory and Prairie Prince, with Bobby Scott on rhythm guitar (when I could get a note in edgewise) and Norton Buffalo on harmonica. It's a helluva band!!

In keeping with all this legendary press before a note was ever played, Geffen Records had been interested from the moment we first began recording. Gary Gersch on his level, and John Kalodner on his level, are both after this project. Gary Gersch called me direct, dispensing with the bullshit about Cy Klopps being Herbie Herbert, he just said "I know it's you, and I want to sign you." John Kalodner had been going through Bill Thompson, Starship's manager, who is also Cy Klopps' manager.

To bring things up-to-date, there's no set deal yet, but we've had a lot of fun, and we really aren't finished with it yet. I've been out of the country for a while, so we'll see what happens when we resume. When you have a rhythm section like that and guitarists like that...I'm the weakest link. If you're into blues guitar, Sy Klopps is a must listening!!!

Sounds Like:

Herbie Herbert: One Man’s Journey

Part 1

Melodicrock.com

http://www.melodicrock.com

Herbie Herbert is one of the music industries most colorful characters. For a period of time he was the 1 manager in the business, taking Journey – a band he put together with Neal Schon – to become a multi-Platinum selling stadium act.

And in taking the band to the stadiums, he also helped pioneer the way we watch bands in such settings. The video screens and high-tech productions that dominate tours today were developed by Herbie and the company he and Neal remain partners in – Nocturne – who are today behind tours by U2, Madonna, Metallica, Def Leppard and of course, Journey.

Herbie also broke Swedish hard rock act Europe in America, not to mention taking Mr. Big, Roxette and Steve Miller Band to more Platinum sales and sold out worldwide tours.

He is vocal in his opinions and calls it like he sees it, which doesn’t always please some folks on the receiving end.

But few people have been in the position Herbie was in and when the chance to interview an industry legend presents itself you don’t turn that down.

I have long followed the business side of the music industry, so Herbie’s insights were something I was looking forward to hearing and he doesn’t disappoint.

I do think this is a different interview than the infamous 2001 interview which was viewed by some as caustic in nature. And I’m pleased about that – but Herbie still has a number of things to say about the band he spent 20 years of his life guiding, some of which you may agree with, some of which you may not agree with.

There are some points within this interview that I clearly do not agree with, but I respect Herbie’s opinion and the experience he has in this business to make those comments.

As was previously the case, Steve Perry remains in his sights as the band’s number one problem. Why is this so? Well…one interesting comment from Herbie says a lot. In talking about the band, Herbie says: “I would just like to make my living and do what I think I can get done here. So from my point of view that got stopped and mucked up quite a bit. There was no reason for them not to continue in ’84, ’85, ’86. they could have been a polished Grateful Dead and that was my model as a deadhead.”

I feel that Herbie saw his long held vision for the band altered by Perry and therein lies the root of the problem. Read the interview and make your own conclusions about the personalities that make up this story.

Journey has a long and complex history, with a number of different eras and different fans of those eras. It makes for an interesting world.

At the end of the day, I would like to hope that this interview could be used not as a springboard for new arguments, issues and debates, but rather as a piece that closes the chapter on the past – a glorious musical past that has left us with so many lifelong memories.

Without Neal Schon and Herbie Herbert there would be no band.

Without Steve Perry there would not have been that electric chemistry that helped deliver a catalogue of songs few artists could compete with, sung by a golden voice envied by all.

Without Steve Augeri the band may not have recaptured the imagination of so many fans, allowing the band to continue into a new era.

Without the fans…there would be no point.

Thanks for reading - Andrew.

Good evening Herbie. Thank you for granting an interview. I know you don’t do too many.

No, I don’t.

I’m not sure, but has Kevin Chalfant told you anything about the website or myself?

Not really but I believe I’ve heard about it because if I’m not mistaken you guys are the ones that somehow in Sweden determined that Steve Augeri was singing to a hard drive.

Ah….well, I didn’t have anything to do with that myself, but you are correct in that those claims appeared on my website’s message board – posted by the sound guy from Sweden. Some chatter was already taking place and…heated debate continued as it always does on that board. The Sweden thing kind of took on a new life from that point onwards.

Yeah it did and I thought that was a healthy thing, that that came to light. Because, you know I think they dodged a real bullet there. They could have easily been reduced to Milli Vanilli quickly. What’s unfortunate about that is Neal Schon’s the real deal.

To generalize a little here – many big acts use samples and even shadow musicians behind the scenes to enhance the sound they are delivering. Why that need for perfection?

Well, because the money at stake on any given night is humongous and unlike motion pictures or television you can’t say freeze or let’s re-tape that or can we do that over or can we shoot tomorrow or whatever. Rock ’n roll is, always has been the most intense, high pressure, and if you’re in that pressure cooker and you do get involved with drugs at all, then you’re very quickly weakened. And you can’t cut it or if you’re as clean as can be there’s a high level exposure. Every city you get to you gotta go to radio and retail and go to in-store appearances. You gotta have backstage meet and greets with all the record labels and the branch in that town and the various radio station personnel.

All the radio stations, you need their support in each market so you’re pressing the flesh and kissing babies and catching the flu.

I remember with Steve Perry we had a four night sellout at the Reunion Arena in Dallas and he really was in rough, rough, rough shape and it was the one time when I had to sit down and go ’Steve’, it’s horrendous, this is why the pressure is what it is, but we would put in suspense the settlement on this, what at the time was an obscenely big gross in rock ’n roll and until we returned and played the postponed fourth date we couldn’t settle because all the deals were really tightly negotiated predicated on four days.

They were extraordinary low deals but they were justified by the band playing four nights sold out in the round and all the ancillary income from parking and all would be frozen if he couldn’t perform. And so, somehow he got through that performance and in those days, when that happened, the crutches hadn’t been developed.

They hadn’t come up with the Akai Samplers and the various technologies that would allow for it. But there was a famous lawsuit that happened in Detroit where it was discovered that a band were playing to just a big reel to reel tape machine out in the soundboard and there was a substantial award - a big settlement against them, a big judgment.

Against what band?

Against Electric Light Orchestra and Don Arden and Jet Records and whoever for basically doing a fake thing, a Milli Vanilli kind of thing.

Journey really, I can remember sitting down one day and putting headphones on and watching a video of the last concert with Gregg Rolie back in 1980 in Tokyo at the Sun Plaza. And being just astonished at how good these guys could sing. You know, Jon Cain was never a Gregg Rolie as a voice but he’s been trying and working at it for frickin’ years now. He tries to cover those Gregg Rolie songs and he marginally pulls it off and Deen Castronovo is such a frickin’ franchise talent. Great singer, great drummer, tremendous talent and so they really could pull off serious vocals. They didn’t need the crutches. With Augeri they did. They needed the crutches, they needed the help. He had trouble. It was rough. I never understood why they went with him. They could have gone with Kevin Chalfant.

You have been a champion of Kevin’s over the years haven’t you?

I really have. Of course he was in the Storm with Gregg Rolie and Ross Valory. And when, you know I had absolutely nothing to do with it, I was on a sailboat going between the Hawaiian Islands and then doing a saltwater fast and was gone for about two and a half months. The day after I got back they were roasting me for the benefit of Thunder Road [October 1993] and they’d put all these bands together that wanted to perform at this benefit and it was sold out and I didn’t pick the bands or book it. Journey performed that night and I was stunned. And they performed with Kevin Chalfant. This is researchable because in Rolling Stone, Random Notes, that must have been ’93, it said, and this was one of the most cutting quotes I’ve ever read where it said “Not even Steve Perry’s mother would have missed him in the band.” Now that is deep. (laughs) I mean, if you’re a writer and you think and say wow that guy really thought about that line.

I mean, he wanted to fuckin’ play out a zinger there, ya know? (laughs) So yeah, and so Kevin was pretty flawless at all times and really could sing in that really high range. But, he did an album of Journey covers.

Yeah, that was last year – very good CD too.

Yeah last year and the thing is, I think the reason that he didn’t get put in the band then is because, you know we’re all, how old was Perry when he sang most of these songs, 30, 31, 32, 33, when you’re in your 40s or 50’s, forget about it. There’s no chance, so Kevin was knocked down a half step. I’m not gonna go to a piano or guitar and try to figure that out. And he really intimated to me that this was done in the original key. Yeah, but barely, you know if you’re a half step down from a major to a minor or whatever, you know, it’s a significant change in the tonality and everything else. And for whatever reason, the band, Journey has always had an obsession with playing the songs in the original key. Despite the logic, the unavoidable logic, that if Steve Perry was still in the band, and I know that there’s a giant public out there that would love nothing more, they’re clueless to the fact that the guy can’t sing anymore.

A number of people have suggested such a thing…

No, I said it in the one interview I did other than this one. No, what the hell, I said listen, here’s what I want you to do. Go out there. There were so many people out there in Golden Gate Park for Bill Graham’s wake. The Grateful Dead, Aaron Neville and all these artists performed and Journey performed that day. Journey performed, you take these songs and you get a tape of that and they took them down two whole steps. I mean, this is from E to A. They passed G to A, you know what I mean?

Knocking ’em down hard and Steve Perry’s voice was all broken up. So, you know, forget about it. It was just so revealing. That was in ’91 at which point that day I hadn’t seen him since 1986 Raised on Radio and that was five years. And what an ugly encounter that was with Steve Perry that day.

That was the last time I ever saw him, Bill Graham’s wake, and if I never saw him again it would be too soon.

You’ve certainly been outspoken about Steve Perry. Your 2001 interview, which was dubbed Castles Burning - [members.cox.net/mrcarty] - your last really big interview I think, become kind of infamous.

Oh really and who did I do that with?

It was with a guy named Matthew Carty.

Oh yeah, Matthew Carty, that was the guy. The guy from Phoenix or whatever, that was, you know the funny thing about that one was, at the end he said ’Now I have to ask you, why did you give me this interview.’ I said, ’You’re the only one who ever asked.’ And I’ll tell you what. This would be the astonishing part. What I think is significant about that is how the artists feel that they’re so the center of the universe. That surely the interest in what is the every nuance of their life is so, you know, as if it were important or whatever. Nobody ever tried to find me. Nobody was ever interested enough to ask me any questions let alone the questions that kid asked. That kid asked some good questions because obviously people were, well, I think it stirred up a lot of controversy.

It sure did…

What it really proved more than anything is the power of something that I was very responsible for. And make no mistake, I have the utmost respect for the talent of these individuals. I selected them man by man. I negotiated and put them into my band.

You know what I mean? And it’s because they were extraordinarily gifted but when you have that sort of creative genius it doesn’t mean that on the other side of your brain, left brain function where it’s acquired knowledge about how to act, how to be, you know, that part that doesn’t have narcissistic personality disorder, you know, that’s the hard part. Very little exposure, you know? It becomes difficult after a while. Who’s human to human, you know? That’s the problem. In the long run though I have ultimate gratitude, ultimate gratitude and I’ll go to my grave as Neal Schon’s greatest champion and fan. I think he is just extraordinarily gifted.

He certainly is. One of the questions I was going to ask you and I’ll throw this at you now – but I don’t think Neal gets his share of love from the critical press.

I’ve never understood it. I’ve kinda thought maybe because of the origins of where Neal and I came from, from when he was 15 joining Santana and I was Carlos’ personal guy and just had a great love affair commence right then with Neal. And I’ve kinda always said, you know, Carlos closed the door behind him. On the guitar legends thing you know, Page, Plant, Hendrix, Carlos Santana, those people could be mentioned in the same breath and for you to distinguish yourself and rise above the din of all the other guitarists you’re really going to have to swing a big bat. And you’re gonna find, you’re gonna look up and you’re gonna go wow, I guess Eric Clapton wasn’t just a lead guitar player. I mean at the end of the day he became a great personality singer and great song selection has a depth of catalog and after while you go wow.

Of course Neal was always a major Clapton fan so he didn’t need to be told anything like that but he didn’t really connect the dots. And so I wanted him to be a songwriter and a singer and in the songwriter since he’s a melody savant, you know, just something else, you know, but it’s been tough and people have been very reluctant to give him his due although I think he’s been incredibly influential and they just don’t talk about it. And whatever, it’s never been de rigueur to mention Neal Schon. I think he scares the hell out of a lot of people. Even technical people that are great players like a Steve Vai or a Joe Satriani or a Eric Johnson or you know? It’s just across the board because he’s just a, he has some sort of sensitivity and touch and feel and voice. Did you hear the album he did for Higher Octave called Voice?

Oh absolutely.

I mean now, who can do that?

I’ve got every one of his solo records. I think he’s astounding.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. (laughter) It really is true you know.

He’s just something else.

I’ve got a lot of questions for you Herbie and…

I’m sorry to just ramble on. Go on and ask your questions.

I didn’t want to cover a lot of territory that Matthew’s interview already did because, credit to him for getting that great interview online, but there’s a lot since that point in time that’s happened that I’d like to ask you about.

OK. I’ve been very, very retired and very, very uninvolved.

I think you keep your ear to the ground though right?

A little bit, yeah. I mean Neal will call me and tell me all the things he’s doing and of course and way back in the very beginning when he first found this singer on YouTube he called me and had me listen to it.

Oh great, Ok, look I’ll get to that in a second Herbie.

I wanted to ask you, just for the people, you know the younger readers of my site that don’t know the Herbie Herbert legacy - you started off in San Francisco with Bill Graham who obviously was a legendary promoter.

How did you hook up with Bill?

We met at the Acid Trips Festival, I think in January or early February of ’66 and just had various encounters when he had the original Filmore Auditorium and then at the Filmore West and we just became very good friends. He was like a second father to me and a mentor and he is the one who, when I asked him what I should do, having been offered a job by Johnny Winter and Steve Paul from Peter, Paul and Mary who had a big hit at the time - Jet Airplane - and their manager was Albert Grossman.

Bill knew both of those gentlemen and what should I do, and both offers started at $150 a week and in 1969 that was a lot of money, believe it or not. And he said, ’I think you should go to work for Santana’. And I said, ’Santana, why, they don’t even have an album out?’ And he said, ’well they’re gonna have an album out’ and he had just returned from Woodstock, which I didn’t go to, and he said the world heard Santana at Woodstock, when their album comes out it’s gonna explode, and he was of course totally right.

So I said ’What can they pay me?’ And he said ’maybe I can get you $75 a week’. So I said, ’you’re telling me to not even consider those other jobs for half the money with Santana?’

And of course, Bill goes “You asked, I told you, you owe me nothing.” (laughter)

So I took the job with Santana and loved it, just loved it. And I loved that man, then along came this little punk kid guitar player, Neal Schon, and there’s a wild story about how that evolved and somehow Gregg Rolie said to the owner of a studio, yeah I’ll help you produce some local club band and Neal was in that local club band. So it was fantastic. Gregg Rolie was always a joy to work with.

I’ve only had a few dealings with Gregg but he has always been very genuine.

Uh huh, and his band’s great. He’s doing fantastic. If you go and see his band play right now he lets you know that he was a very big part of both Santana and Journey. A very big component, and really the leader, you know. Musically, the band leader and it was devastating when he left Journey. I was fuckin’ crushed.

And you covered that in the Carty interview. He’d just had enough at the time. Yeah, it was just, you know, bad things were brewing. He knew it and he didn’t want to live through it. I think he felt that Perry was gunning for me from early on and I don’t know why.

Yeah, so you started off with Sanatana and moved through the ranks and then put Journey together and you were doing pretty well initially. Where did the desire to turn Journey into a bigger act come from?

After the first three albums, and by the third album the inmates were allowed to run the asylum. Meaning that Journey got to produce their own third album, Next. You know, there was a real cult following. They were like a jazz/fusion/rock kind of thing. We played with Weather Report, Majahvishnu Orchestra, Santana, and Robin Trower and bands like that. And it just went over perfect and I loved that original band and many people did. I think the first album in real time sold like 150,000 and the second album sold 250,000 and then the third album did 100,000 or maybe 150,000. So with that, and the thing that people can’t quite keep in perspective, is where Journey was in that. All the other bands in their supposed genre had really come and gone. Boston, Foreigner, Styx, REO all those bands had their hits way before Journey had theirs. In fact some of those hits were from things borrowed from Journey. I think if you’ll listen to I’m Gonna Leave on the Look Into the Future record, track 5 side 1, it’s Carry On Wayward Son, by Kansas. They just lifted it. And if you listen on the third, Next, album to Nickel Dime, that’s Tom Sawyer by Rush and they didn’t modify it very much.

And that, I think, is the biggest song of their career. That’s a pretty big career and so they were kinda left in the station when the train left. They were standing on the platform watching the tail lights of the caboose go wailing away in the distance. Then you look up and it’s 1977 and they’ve toured all year, all through Europe with Santana and another big tour with ELO both in ’76 and ’77 and it just wasn’t happening. And you look at the charts and its Donna Summer, Saturday Night Fever, Grease, Disco Inferno by The Trammps. I mean it was as clear as ringing a bell that era was gone and basically Columbia Records said that. It’s over.

So I was just in a complete scramble and they were gonna drop the act. So there was a scramble to do something to modify what we were doing. So I said we’ll change it, we’ll go commercial, I’ll put in a lead singer and this guy that was in charge of artist development, Arma Andon had a singer that he liked that was managed by Barry Fey in Denver and that guy was Robert Fleishman. So we tried him and did a whole tour with him, with Emerson Lake and Palmer and even played stadium dates. And he was just very difficult to manage. And somewhere along the line I finally got a Steve Perry tape. I’d met Steve Perry numerous times, had thought about him numerous times. There were just certain moments. I mean when I was going to make the deal for Robert Fleishman in the middle of the Golden Gate Bridge with John Villanueva we both looked at each other and I goes, ’Steve Perry. I still have never heard that fuck, but I have a feeling about him’. Then when I finally did hear him, I listened to him for about 60 seconds on tape and I tried to chase him down, but he’s already left the music business. I talked to his mom and he was working in a turkey farm in Visalia pounding nails with his stepfather Marv on the weekends trying to pay back his debts.

He’d borrowed all this money from them while he lived in LA and put his bands together and put his demos together and did showcase after showcase to managers, to labels, to agencies, and nobody ever heard it. Nobody ever wanted it.

I don’t get that at all.

I was pretty astonished by it. I got it in seconds. I got it, and so I wanted, and you know what? At that moment, when I heard it, I was thinking that and well it was really truth, Robert was pretty well in the band and Neal loved Robert Fleishman. They really liked him. He was just a poodle in heat to deal with as a manager. He was like (using whiny voice) “Oh everybody, would you clear the dressing room? That person smoking over there….” That kind of, you know, oh man please. If this is before he’s got his first paycheck what’s gonna happen?

So there was that side of it and so at that moment I just liked this band. I wanted to sign this band. It was called Alien Project. And I said I’ll do this. I’m gonna make this happen. And from my first phone call, that very weekend, the bass player in that band died in a car accident which really left Steve Perry very fermished [messed up].

When I tried to talk him into coming up and spending a week with me at my house he couldn’t afford to. I talked to his employer, got an ok, told him I’d pay him the money he was gonna lose, pay his expenses, he can sleep on my couch. He did all that and I started workin’ on him and said ok let’s forget the Alien Project. Let’s talk about Journey. And it was not an easy negotiation by any stretch. He was afraid of Aynsley Dunbar not having a groove, being too white a British drummer with very minimal exposure to soul or R&B and not strong on the backbeat. I loved Aynsley, I still love Aynsley, great guy, intellect. You know, talent with an intellect, that’s why I worked with Steve Miller for so many years. I like the resourceful type people, the Jeff Lynne’s of the world. But you know at a certain point with Perry, Aynsley only lasted one record really, the Infinity album. Then we terminated him and brought in Steve Smith.

And that was the start of the hits era for the band…

Yes, in truth yes, their first top ten hit was Who’s Crying Now from Escape. Although people want to swear up and down that Lights and Feelin’ That Way and Wheel in the Sky and all these familiar songs, you know, the Lovin’ Touchin’ Squeezin’, Anyway You Want It, and songs that got so Goddamned much airplay you got pounded by them but they really were never hits. And a lot of that airplay was subliminal. And a lot of it was not really subliminal it’s called foreground music.

That was little discovery about these companies up in Seattle, Washington at the time, AEI Audio Environments Inc., and their lobby’s loaded with all of Journey’s platinum and gold because they played up nationwide like you can’t believe on their in-house proprietary music systems. We did big promotions with all their people and access to Journey tickets and merchandise and meet and greets and things like that and oh my God the airplay we got from that was incredible. So every shoe store, shopping mall, restaurant from the Rusty Scuppers to Houstons, you know, there it is.

Getting all that airplay, those are all gross impressions and they cume up to a level of recognition and familiarity that makes people really believe that those songs were hit songs. They were heard so much it just wasn’t on normal, it certainly wasn’t on contemporary hit radio which is how you get a hit single.

Yeah exactly, in the classical sense.

Anything and every kind of radio but that, you know.

You were credited over those years with taking Journey further than maybe they would have gone on their own as well as building the whole idea of a live touring circuit weren’t you?

Yeah, it was kind of a sneak attack because when the industry is used to a certain methodology as to how it works and how hit bands work what kind of hit it takes on the radio to go platinum, what it takes in terms of contemporary hit, CHR they called it at the time, radio. R&R Parallel One stations was the bible at that time and we weren’t getting any of that yet selling millions of records. This is totally beneath the radar and one of the other techniques was we would fashion the most fantastic radio spots that would emphasize our emphasis track that we wanted the most airplay on and we would run those. Sixty second spots back in the day when radio was cheap to buy. In the ’70s it was cheap, cheap, cheap, and we’d pound those and you know those radio spots were airplay. They were cumes [accumulations], they were gross impressions and you know, they’re proving that theory right now in the most recent Apple campaigns. The music today that they’re using on the new Apple Ipod or the new Air [laptop] da-do-da-do-do and all of a sudden you’re singing the song and that’s the way it works. Familiarity creates comfort which creates a transaction. So that’s what it was all about, how to cume up gross impressions of a band that is not radio friendly in a disco world.

In a disco world and another thing that was very effected was the artwork at that time. Creating a unique, highly recognized imagery within your target demographic so when they see it, so by the time we got to the Escape album it did not have to say Journey on it. And what I would suggest is, no matter how that lineup is perceived, if Jon Cain all of a sudden comes in and it’s the classic lineup, OK, OK, but there was a bed there already a base of sales.

They’d already sold 12 - 14 million records by then. Across Infinity, Evolution, Departure and Captured, you betcha. Look at all those records. I think Infinity’s quadruple platinum, I would imagine Evolution is, I would think Departure’s at least triple platinum and the double album, I know Captured is past double platinum.

A double album past double platinum and at a time when lots of live albums come out and no one fared that well, the Eagles or anybody. So they had a hell of a thing going and the way we said Escape was E5C4P3 and the way we wrote the band’s name, it looked like Russian and a lot of people never figured out how you had to turn it on it’s side to see it say Journey and that was only on the shrink wrap. There were some graphics on the actual album cover itself, but when we initially put it out it was just the egg with the scarab Escape vehicle busting out of it. That’s it. Then they made us change it and put some stuff on it. We didn’t need to. Blew, blew units out everybody knew what that was. It didn’t need to have a name on it. Then of course, right then and there is when Steve Perry really wanted to muck with the formula. You know, he really wanted to put things through a lot of changes.

In the years you’ve had to reflect on that have you come to a definitive conclusion as to why he wanted those changes?

No, he’d send Sigmund Freud to the hills, screaming and rippin’ out his hair. (laughter) He’s a tough nut to figure.

Who knows, it’s probably very petty jealousies or whatever. It seemed like he wanted, you know it was especially revealing to me when we had his solo album and I was managing him with Street Talk, and the song Oh Sherrie, and I mean I tell ya, he really had a gun to Journey’s head right then. He had me, and I was just committed, I’m gonna make this happen because also as a manager it was going to be what I felt would be a very rewarding thing for me to know that in view of the failures of virtually every major artist coming out of a major group to have success on their own. The members of Pink Floyd, or Hall & Oates, or the Cars or any band that was huge. Aerosmith or any of theses guys, they do solo records and it’s a dud. Phil Collins at that point had failed to go gold on Face Value and the one record that had come out as a solo record that had done extraordinarily well, virtually the same time, was Bella Donna, Stevie Nicks. She did triple platinum and we did more than double platinum in just America alone on Steve Perry’s Street Talk. And I can tell you honestly, he denigrated me at every possible opportunity and said that I sandbagged him, that I fucked him, and I you know, and that the record of course should have been much bigger than Escape and showing total ignorance to the concept of branding and what we had built over so many years.

Record Label: Unsigned